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All right. Welcome to all of uh the folks who are, who are filtering in um from our waiting room. Thank you for joining us today. Um, Looks like a Still percolating in a bit, um, but good afternoon, um, to everyone. Uh, thank you so much for

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joining us today for, uh, our webinar. Um, thanks especially to our speakers, Pearl and Crystal, who are joining us during their lunch hour. Um, uh, my name is Genevieve Tang. This is, of course, the latest event in our Biddle speaker series which we offer in partnership

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with the Society for Academic Law Librarians. Um, I'm going to be your host for this session. And if this is your first time, uh, joining us, the Speaker series exists to showcase emerging and impactful writing and scholarship on all aspects of legal information and law librarianship.

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So it's going to be my pleasure to introduce our speakers today, Pearl McCree and Crystal Crystal Aberthal, um, who both join us from the Marion Gould Gallagher Law Library at the University of Washington School of Law. Uh, a few words about the two of them. Crystal

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has been with the library for, I believe, 25 years. That's incredible. Congratulations. And she currently serves as the head of collections, Resources and Information Management. She holds an MLIS from the University of Washington Information School. You may know Crystal from her service and participation in AALL,

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the Law Librarians of Puget Sound, the North American Cereals Interest Group, NLCO, and Sol. So, it's, it's new, the Society of Academic Law Librarians. Her work underscores the critical role of vendor relations in law librarianship, ensuring the effective acquisition and management of resources to support legal

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education and research. Pearl is the collection management librarian at the Gallagher Law Library, and she also holds a Master of Libraryan Information Science from the University of Washington Information School. She oversees collection development, acquisitions, archival digitization, and resource sharing, emphasizing the modernization of workflows and enhancing

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library operations through collaboration with vendor partners. She's dedicated to access to justice and open access initiatives exemplified by the Law Library's recent project to digitize court briefs related to the Bolt decision, making these documents freely accessible to support legal research, education, and public understanding. So we're

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very fortunate to have Crystal and Pearl with us today to speak about their chapter in law librarianship practice. You also see it on the screen, and if you don't already hold a copy in your library, I'll be sharing a link to their publishers' website in the

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chat momentarily. So the work starts with the premise that these vendor relationships uh really undergird our library's ability to carry out our missions, um, whether we're in government, academia, or in private firm settings. So I have actually, I was rereading the chapter this morning and I

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have been personally working on a faculty project that's made really heavy use of the Hine West Academic Casebook archive which the Gallagher Law Library was a primary contributor towards, so I feel very personally invested in this moment for the positive outcome of these collaborations. Um, on

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the housekeeping side throughout today's talk, you can add questions to the Q&A at will. We'll be addressing those at the end of the session. I'm going to be monitoring the chat and the Q&A so that Pearl and Crystal can focus on their remarks, and we'll of

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course have time for them to address your questions at the end. Um, so enough from me. Thank you again for joining us, and I'm going to turn it over to Pearl and Crystal. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jennaie. Hi, everyone. I'm Pearl and I'm Crystal,

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and today we are talking about our chapter in lolllibrarianship practice, uh, on vendor relations. We started writing this chapter. Because one of the big things we wanted to emphasize is that vendors aren't just service providers, they're really strategic partners for us. The relationships we build with

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them shape how our users experience the law library, and in this chapter, we focus on three core themes that show up again and again in our real world vendor work. Those are collaboration, negotiation, implementation, and you'll hear those threads running throughout the examples that we share

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with you today. So why do vendor relations matter? Um, vendor relations matter because as Pearl stated, vendors aren't just service providers. They can be strategic partners with libraries in their efforts to provide meaningful services and resources to their users. They influence nearly every aspect of library

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operations and the acquisitions to discovery life cycle, including usability and accessibility. The evolving role of librarians in these relationships is balancing access, ethics, and value as negotiators, advocates, and bridge builders while we think about current and future libraries. Our goal with this chapter was to highlight

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specific examples of libraries successfully collaborating with vendors and help others think about how they can leverage those partnerships differently, moving from a transactional and sometimes contentious partnership to a Transformative partnership, especially as vendor landscapes shift towards shared systems and digital ecosystems. The end result can be

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mutually rewarding for both library and vendor in creating strong relationships that help drive innovation and efficiency. In the chapter, we frame vendor relations through these three interconnected dimensions. They're not standalone steps, they reinforce each other, and they ultimately support long-term sustainability, and honestly, they shape how

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innovative we're able to be here in our library. Crystal and I, uh, will walk through some examples from the Gallagher Law Library to show what these look like in the actual day to day work, and, uh, the strategic parts. From the very strategic parts to the

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practical, we need to get this going, we need to get this out to our users tomorrow, how do we do that? So, collaboration with vendors is, we see an opportunity for co-creation, stewardship of library resources, and fosters innovation. These strategic partnerships require intentional communication, possibly data

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sharing, and can help amplify library capabilities. Ways co-creation can happen are through shared digitization and acquisition initiatives, balancing human expertise and librarians specialized skills and knowledge with automation. Leveraging vendor expertise to enhance library services, and engaging in consortial collaborations to reduce redundancy and save on library

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resources. Pearl, can you share some examples of successful collaboration that we've engaged in? Absolutely. Thanks, Crystal. As we've both grown more comfortable in our leadership roles here, we've been able to support, we've been able to spot areas in our work and our workflows and services where

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things could be improved. Uh, and vendors have really helped us think through those challenges. One of the biggest benefits of collaborating with vendors is that we don't always need to show up with the solution in hand. A lot of these conversations we have start with a

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question. Here's the problem we're seeing, how do we make this better? Our work with Hine is a great example of this. We do some in-house digitization, but the question that we regularly run into is how can we get this done faster without hiring someone full-time? How

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do we connect our resources to that end user, um, sooner and, and less of a, like 10 year process. So, partnering with Hein has allowed us to digitize unique historical and legal materials from our collection that would otherwise be really slow or difficult to process internally.

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We just don't have the same level of expertise that they do. Their partnership helps us preserve legal scholarship and then expand access to content that would otherwise be really challenging for researchers to find. I have some volumes that they just returned to us from like the

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early 1700s in a big case upstairs right now, just waiting for me to check them back in. So it's really cool that we get to work with them on this sort of stuff. Um, collaborating on digitization is really mutually beneficial. They're able to look at our

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collection and say, this is what would be helpful. For you to send us and we're able to look at our collection and say, hey, we have this thing that you might be interested in. Would you like to digitize this, um, and give us a copy, and

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then you can also share a copy. So it really expands that access piece for our users, um, to some of those more fragile and rare materials, um. Especially like the bol uh briefs that we mentioned briefly, um, in the chapter. Gobi is another example of a

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vendor that we really enjoy partnering with. One of the things that I appreciate most with partnering with Gobi is that whenever I meet with our rep, she's genuinely excited to help us make our work easier. Um, I feel like it's been years of her saying, Pearl,

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it doesn't have to be this hard, and me saying, What? Um, so using Gobi's many services is really a great example of how we can balance automation and library expertise. Um, their services streamline acquisitions while still leaving room for staff judgment and thoughtful decision making for

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the pieces that we still really want to have our hands on. Um, some of their services, we tried to set up like a, a faculty approval profile and have faculty publications automatically ship, and sometimes we try things and we decide that it doesn't work out, we

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were going to receive all of our faculty affiliate publications, um, and it was just going to be too much, so that. That's one thing where we walked back and we're like we need to actually be a little bit more hands on, but they can set it

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up in a way where we still get to um kind of highlight those titles um and use some of their automation workflows to help us with those purchases without turning on the full service. Um, we're now also utilizing their shelf-ready services, which means that we no

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longer need to train and oversee someone on how to do the physical processing of our standing orders and monographs from them. This frees up a lot of librarian time so that we can focus on higher value work instead of those routine daily tasks. Um, consortial collaboration

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on shared licenses and shared systems is another instance where we really benefit from being part of a larger organization. Um, we're part of, uh, the University of Washington, and so we partner with UW libraries on a lot of things. And then bigger than that, we're also

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part of the Orbis Cascade Alliance, and so it's a consortium of the of libraries with a shared catalog and shared Um, print, so that we can all kind of, um, expand our, our purchasing power. These partnerships really help us avoid redundant vendor negotiations. They strengthen our

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bargaining power, and they make those resources go a lot further than we have. We also have joint ILS platforms, um, and then we're able to share journal packages and have collaborative licensing. Um, we're a really small library, so this means that we're able to offer a

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lot more things, um, to our users and collaborate across those, um, Across those partnerships, collaborating on this level really just. It, it makes it a, we have a bigger impact, so it's really great. All of these examples build towards the same goals, better service, better access,

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and better stewardship of our resources. All right. So, um, I'm gonna keep going. OK, yeah. So I'm gonna start over here. Essentially, uh, we're trying to talk about the continually shifting landscape of complex vendor negotiations, um, and how librarians have become the intermediary for those. Um,

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and that we're no longer working with, um, simple print agreements, that we're now working with more complex digital agreements that need to be dynamic, flexible, and data-driven, addressing technology integration, privacy, data security, security, and increasingly AI related data use. We need to balance budgets, legal requirements,

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and often stricter internal privacy policies, pressures that vary between public and private institutions. While librarians play a critical role in identifying risks, educating vendors, and advocating for institutional needs. Effective strategies now include leveraging data to guide decisions, prioritizing accessibility and interoperability, and building trust through early

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transparent communication with vendors about policies and technical limits. Ultimately, A modern contract negotiation requires strategic planning, cross-unit collaboration, and a strong understanding of privacy and compliance to secure favorable, flexible terms while protecting institutional integrity and user data. I'll highlight some examples of negotiations the Gallagher Law

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Library has engaged in that include best practices you see listed here, and specific abs abs a specific aspects of negotiation standards we just talked about. So, negotiating with Westlaw, Lexus, and Bloomberg has meant for us that there are privacy and FERPA implications. These legal research platforms,

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as we know, have frequent enhancements and upgrades that continue to challenge privacy and data regulations and institutional policies. AI right now, of course, is one of those. Further, each vendor has unique pricing models and features, making it difficult to compare them directly. Institutions must balance broad

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access with escalating costs and evaluate needs and long-term value. Going into these negotiations, we needed to know what data these legal research platforms would be processing, and who would own that data. Are the contract terms in alignment with your institutional guidelines and policies? We had to

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look at all of these. We also need to consider what kind of accessibility these platforms provide. If we need to supplement that in any way, are the accessibility, um, embedded in these, um, legal platforms in alignment with the institutional accessibility requirements, and what training and support

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the vendors will make available to our users. So the lollabry acquisition of laptops anytime kiosks, which we talked about earlier, right? Did we? Yes, highlights the need to balance convenience with user privacy during negotiation. The main concern during this negotiation was related to privacy and the

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kiosk cameras capturing personally identifiable information during user interaction with the kiosks. Through negotiation, Gallagher and UW Privacy worked with the vendor to disable and physically block cameras, adding this to the contract. This was outside of what laptops anytime had ever done with a um a client

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before. Um, and was in alignment and imperative for us to be able to acquire them to make them usable services for our students. This illustrates the need for detailed attention to data handling and hardware agreements, not just software. Since we got interrupted earlier and I'm not

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sure we touched on laptops anytime yet, thank you. It's a kiosk that, uh, it, it basically vends laptops and charger cables, um, so a user is able to swipe their ID card and then it spits out a laptop. So if somebody shows up to campus without

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remembering to bring their laptop, they need something for a test. Their laptop unexpectedly stops working, um, they've got something available to them, so it's a really cool service that we're able to offer, but it's taken a lot of work to get it off the ground. Yeah,

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thanks, Pearl. Yeah. Um, another example of negotiation in action is, um, when we were negotiate negotiating with OCLC OCLC to get to PASA. So, as Pearl mentioned earlier, the Gallagher Law Library has a shared ILS with UW libraries, but we operate our interlibrary loan separately. This

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creates unique technical, uh, limitations when trying to integrate to PASA and its features as intended. Additionally, UW privacy guidelines restrict us from utilizing some of the TPASA features, while others can't be integrated due to the system conflicts. So the licensing and acquisition process required multi-unit coordination

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between the law library, UW privacy Office, and procurement, our law IT department, and OCLC. Negotiation for this contract demonstrates the need for flexibility, strong internal communication, and vendor training on both sides, and support before and during onboarding, which led to an adaptable license that fit the

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law library's needs. Thank you so much. After collaboration and negotiation with vendors, we move into actualizing the fruits of these processes and into implementation. Uh, and we're, we're definitely gonna get there. We're just making sure that we don't lose you guys again. OK, something just happened.

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Can you guys see us and hear us still OK? Uh, your, your, uh, your camera has just returned. Um, we have not advanced your slide. OK. So now we just need to go to the next slide. Thank you. We're really sorry for these technical difficulties, you

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guys. OK. Pearl, do you wanna talk about implementation? I would love to talk about implementation, especially now we've got the laptop plugged in. Foolish of us to think that we could make it through a full webinar without plugging into anything. So sorry. When we talk about

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implementation, this is really the make it real phase. So this is where our big ideas become, uh, they come together in the strategic planning. Um, it all, it all comes together and it becomes something that we get to interact with and use. A few examples of

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the technology in action are Tapasa. This transformed our interlibrary loan workflows and made it more streamlined and responsive. This is another instance where we've been able to automate a lot of the routine daily task work associated with ILL to free up staff time. So we were

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sending um manual emails anytime a book was due and needed to be returned to the library. Um, this is work that we don't need to have our hands on. And so we worked with our vendor to identify ways that we could automate this. Uh, we asked

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the question of like, how, why, why are we sending manual emails and how can we stop doing this. Um, Greenglass is another example of a really powerful tool offered by OCLC, um, And we're able to benefit from UW Library's subscription to Green Glass, um, as a

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very small institution, as a small organization, we're able to use their purchasing power, um, and we're included on the holdings load, so that we're able to use this for data-informed collection management. It gives us insights that we didn't have before into our collection. So we're able

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to look at areas that might need weeding, uh, materials that might need to be remarked and moved out of circulation due to rarity, um, and just really get into the actual information about our collection in a different way. Um, as Crystal mentioned, laptops anytime is another

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vendor that we've worked closely with. We said we have a need. How do we solve this need? And then because of the unique way that we negotiated for our specific needs in our library. And to remove any personal identifiable information, the vendor actually had to create

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boutique software and hardware, and, they said, yes, we said this is what we need, and they said, yes, we can do that, but there's been unforeseen problems that have come with this that have required us to have a seemingly endless implementation process, which has involved librarians,

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and then our IT staff, and then the vendor's IT staff. They've flown people out here a few times to continue to troubleshoot. Um, how to get it to work the way that we really need it to work for our users to protect their information and to

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just connect them with the, um, the laptops and the chargers. The biggest point that I really want to make here is that implementation isn't a one-time setup, it's ongoing. It requires monitoring, adjustments, and dialogue with staff and users, and when we implement something new, it has

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to align with our user-centered goals, and not just what's shiny or convenient, but what actually improves their experience and what we can afford. So, we move on now to lessons learned, and what have we learned? We've learned a lot. We continue to learn. Um, the challenges

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of implementation bring about opportunities. These include balancing innovation with staff capacity and library resources, managing vendor updates and system fatigue with staff, and ensuring frequent or as needed and consistent training among library staff and beyond if applicable. Once we get into the flow of the opportunities

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that the challenges provide us, we need to maintain and sustain success. That's a revolving door of pilot, evaluate, and refine of the resources and tools we're we're using. This requires maintaining communication with vendors, documenting product or project procedures, as well as institutional-specific workflows for continuity and

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accurate troubleshooting. Asking the five whys is a helpful way of ensuring that librarians are discussing how we can embed evaluation and documentation practices to sustain, to sustain success. The five whys is something our department has um integrated into our practice of doing all the things a

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few years ago, um, and we like to start and end our days and these kinds of conversations with the five whys all the time. Pearl, what are the five whys? So, it's a tool that we use to just question and look a little bit deeper at

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what we're doing, how we're doing it, and why we're doing it. Um, so sometimes Crystal comes to my office and she says, I think we should do this, and I say, why? Um, it's, it's a way to have a conversation around it. It's not personal. I'm

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not trying to, um, poke holes in what Crystal's doing or attack her in any way, um, but it's an opportunity for us to really think through, like, why are we doing it this way? Why do we need to do it this way? How could it be

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done differently? And how do we get there? Like, where are? The other why questions that we need to ask. Um, can we ask our vendor why it's happening in this way? I think a really good example of this was that OCLC recently rolled out some new

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changes with Tapasa, and everybody said, why? Um, so there's always that opportunity to both ask each other, our department, the library as a whole, and then to reach out to our vendors as well and say, why is it this way? Could, could it be different, um.

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And how could it be different? How could it be different? Yeah. Thank you, Carl, yeah. When we look across all of these three dimensions, and we integrate them together, um, they really connect in a cycle. Collaboration builds trust, the negotiation sets the expectations and the boundaries,

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and implementation brings these agreements into life and keeps the partnership moving forward. Together they create a vendor relationship ecosystem that's resilient and future focused. Uh, if there's one thing to take away from this, it's really the informa implementation is iterative. Um, we're constantly evaluating, we're asking

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what's working and giving feedback that helps the vendors improve, and then before we move. Move to final takeaways. I want you to take a moment to, um, reflect on your own organization and what you think you could strengthen in one of these three areas. Um, maybe

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there needs to be more collaboration to build that trust, um, to feel less like it's you against the vendor and more like you're working towards something together. So, our hope and intention with this work is to really encourage curiosity and creative thinking about vendor relationships and

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move from a historically transactional process and sometimes contentious experience, which I mentioned earlier, to a collaboration and partnership with vendors. Collaboration and negotiation are continuous, not one-time events. When we emphasize and lean into partnerships over procurement, we can work with vendors and build mutually beneficial relationships

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that have shared values, trust, transparency, and adaptability. This helps institutions find ways to ensure they're in compliance with privacy and accessibility laws and rules and requires a cycle of continuous learning. There's the cycle thing that's very, we're saying this a lot, uh, but we're collaboratively reassessing

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contracts, tools, and workflows all the time. So our call to action to ourselves and to and to you is really that we embrace innovation while maintaining professional ethics and share lessons across library types to strengthen collective leverage. We invite you to reflect and ask yourself, what

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challenge could become an opportunity, and is there a vendor that can collaborate on that with you? Thank you. We would love to hear your feedback, your own experiences, and welcome your questions. And I'm so sorry again about our laptop difficulties here. We're really sorry. Uh, please

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don't apologize. It happens to, uh, the best of us. Um, and I am, uh, opening up the Q&A here. I'm, I'm leaving my video off just to make sure that I'm not, uh, placing additional strain on, on, uh, the internet. Um, I see that we have,

00:27:34.109 - 00:27:54.069

uh, an attendee with a hand up, um, and I, I'm actually gonna need to If if it's possible to place your questions in our Q&A box, that would be kind of ideal from a from a Uh, housekeeping perspective, um, but otherwise, um, I'm going to, uh,

00:27:54.530 - 00:28:07.560

start off with just a question that I had when I was, uh, reading your chapter. Um, I, I have a lot of thoughts. Um, I love the positive outlook. Um, I, I wonder if you could speak to, I feel like you've alluded to this, uh, at

00:28:07.560 - 00:28:24.125

different parts of your talk, but, um, your perspective on when it's better to initiate a conversation with a vendor because you have a problem that you are trying to solve or when you want To be more exploratory in the chapter you talk about sort of when

00:28:24.125 - 00:28:40.099

vendors might have ideas for solving problems you didn't even kind of conceptualize as problems or where you might they be offering features and tools that you did not know about. So but I feel like the flip side of that is when for example we're offered. Uh,

00:28:40.380 - 00:28:55.800

solutions to problems that things that seem very tech or solution focused rather than addressing an existing problem. Like we're going to adopt the tech for the sake of adopting the tech. So I would just love to hear your thoughts about, uh, when, when to go in

00:28:55.800 - 00:29:15.949

with an exploratory mindset and when to go in with a problem solving mindset. Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, I think that. I think that one of the vendors that we've done this a lot with is actually two of them, is OCLC with Topasa and

00:29:15.949 - 00:29:37.224

with Gobi in terms of the services that they can provide us for not only like shelf-ready stuff, but also our collection management. And I think that an example of um we have a problem. Or a workflow issue, and we have a specific request for how you

00:29:37.224 - 00:29:56.459

can help us, is an example of working with um Gobi. And, you know, we are a very small library, we don't have a lot of staff. How can we utilize shelf-ready services within this budget, within this kind of um With we, this is what this has

00:29:56.459 - 00:30:14.319

to look like. Um, so it's less exploratory and more like, we know they have a service they can provide, um, it needs to look like this to meet our institution's expectations. Um, what can you do for us? I think some of that too is just having

00:30:14.319 - 00:30:30.829

more Regular conversations with your vendor reps. Like you don't know what to ask, how to ask, or what they might be able to do for you until you maybe start having those conversations. So we met with folks from OCLC this week, um, and they asked how

00:30:30.829 - 00:30:44.420

we were liking Tapasa, and I was like, you know, I really like it. I think it's improved a lot of the A lot of our workflow issues that we were having, some of my biggest complaints, I think, are more constraints because of um being part of

00:30:44.420 - 00:30:59.119

the larger UW community and the consortium. And then having a separate ILL system that's integrated in the library catalog. And so I just expressed, like, you know, I think we encounter some, you know, some limitations with using the software just because of that, and they were

00:30:59.119 - 00:31:12.880

like, well, can you tell me more about that? And I started talking more about how, you know, I wish that I could have some automated deflections that say like, no, we can't loan this material if it's already loaned out. And they were like, well, you can

00:31:12.880 - 00:31:28.015

do that without integrating your catalog. And I was like, stop it. And, I haven't been doing this already. So, that was, uh, you know, something that I had identified as an issue already, and we had talked about and we thought was just something that we had

00:31:28.015 - 00:31:40.775

to live with, but it really, um, it took having that conversation with the vendor to even know that it was a problem that could be solved. I think sometimes we just accept that this is the way that it is, or we don't feel like we can

00:31:40.775 - 00:31:56.170

ask for something. Like, at no cost or at, at a, at a low discounted cost for partnership and collaboration, because we just think the answer is going to be no, and I think it's just really good to remind ourselves over and over again that like the

00:31:56.170 - 00:32:07.329

worst someone can say is no. So yeah, if I can ask hi and hey, do you want to partner on digitizing this material so that we both have it, um, the worst that they can say is no, and then we do it in-house because we want

00:32:07.329 - 00:32:31.640

it to happen. Yeah. Does that answer your question? It does. It does. Thank you so much. We have a participant with our hand raised, so I'm going to unmute. The, um, So, uh, Michelle, if you want to ask your question, um, you just have to unmute

00:32:31.640 - 00:32:57.640

yourself. OK, her, her hand is down. So, uh, I'm going to um move on to a question from our Q&A for a newer law librarian who is not always involved in vendor meetings, discussions, or negotiations, how do you recommend preparing to be in roles that require

00:32:57.640 - 00:33:16.319

handling and navigating these relationships? Oh, great question. You know, I think one of the things that I am so grateful for at the law library here at Gallagher is um the mentorship that I've been provided over the years that I've worked here, um, not just at

00:33:16.319 - 00:33:34.520

Gallagher, I also want to extend that to other institutions, um, because of the people I've been able to meet and get to know through organizations. Um, I would say that asking for uh an opportunity to talk to librarians who have been part of vendor negotiations and

00:33:34.520 - 00:33:55.109

meetings, um, contract conversations, to start to build your understanding of the language you might need to know, the processes unique to your institution, federal and state laws that might guide how contracts need to be, um, for your organization, um, and then, You could, in addition to

00:33:55.109 - 00:34:15.389

that, you could start by thinking about within the scope of what your position is, what are some things that maybe you see as needs, wants, um, Creative possibilities for workflow challenges that you could take to other people in your library that do have those conversations with

00:34:15.389 - 00:34:34.888

vendors and begin to have those conversations internally with the librarians, um, and the administration, people who engage in those conversations with the vendors, and in that way begin to participate more, um, and have more of a direct impact on the work you do. Um, Pearl, do

00:34:34.888 - 00:34:49.330

you have any other suggestions right? Yeah, I would just add that you can always ask to be included, um. Maybe you can just, you know, you're interested in a listening perspective, you want to show up to the meeting but not necessarily participate so that you have

00:34:49.330 - 00:35:03.040

an opportunity to learn and see what that's gonna be like. I think that's been one of the big benefits for me here is that I've really been included in these vendor like conversations that we've been having since I was hired into a staff role, um, back

00:35:03.040 - 00:35:21.699

in 2017, 2016. Um, so our vendor rep is the same person, uh, that I'm now working with that was coming then, and, uh, she and I were able to start talking then about, you know, ways that they could help support us, um. And just kind of

00:35:21.699 - 00:35:36.590

innovative, innovative ways that we could change collection development and what we could do. Um, and so I've really been able to build that relationship and that trust, and then, you know, work towards the collaboration with them on improving our services because I've kind of had this,

00:35:36.709 - 00:35:51.719

you know, long building relationship with them and an understanding of, of what Gobi is able to do for us. Yeah, so I attend UW libraries, uh, meetings, I say, can I just come to this, like, I don't want to show up and talk, I'm going to

00:35:51.719 - 00:36:04.600

keep my camera off, but I want to hear what you're talking about. Um, I want to hear what these vendors are sharing with you, even if it ends up not being, you know, as applicable to my work and what we do, it's still really helpful. It

00:36:04.600 - 00:36:20.570

informs the work that I continue to do and how I move forward. Thank you so much. Um, I think we have a related question next in the queue. Um, uh, so the questioner starts with, uh, saying thank you and great presentation. I'm wondering what advice you

00:36:20.570 - 00:36:42.479

would give someone who's beginning their career in collection development. And perhaps related to that second question, looking back, what do you wish you had learned earlier when you started your careers in this area? Great question. I think a lot of it just builds on itself. Yeah,

00:36:42.919 - 00:37:02.969

that's what I was gonna say too. I, I wish that I had a better, um, initial response. I think honestly, a lot of it is just one of the things that I think is um a challenge, but also that I love about working in a law

00:37:02.969 - 00:37:26.169

library is that it's constantly, constantly changing, and so it's the iterative iterative experience of um Working with how something is now, and then how it's going to be, uh, and, and you build your knowledge and experience. As you move through these phases of change, I'm sorry

00:37:26.169 - 00:37:49.459

for not articulating this very well, um, I think just getting into opportunities where you have the ability to learn, watch, listen, do, will help you gain the skills, the knowledge, and the experience to be able to more confidently navigate collection development, talking to people who do

00:37:49.459 - 00:38:06.020

what you do from other institutions, um, That's also I think hugely important, you know, try to get outside of your bubble or your your community, that has contributed a lot to what we know and how we choose to do things or decide not to do things

00:38:06.020 - 00:38:20.530

at our own library just because of the nature of how it will or won't fit. Yeah, I think also just getting comfortable with saying I don't know. Um, maybe, like, I like to say this is a knowledge gap for me. This is something that I don't,

00:38:20.689 - 00:38:32.729

I don't know. Maybe I think I should know, but I'm not going to pretend that I do. I'm gonna own it and say I don't know this. I'm gonna ask about it. Maybe Crystal doesn't know, and we can have a conversation about both not knowing, and

00:38:32.729 - 00:38:48.750

then we need to ask. Um, so I think that's something that we've really tried to, to continue to model in our department is that, like, I don't have to know the answers to all the questions, um, one of us probably knows who to ask. Pearl, would

00:38:48.750 - 00:39:06.530

you say, what would you say is maybe the one thing that's helped you the most in your role as collection development librarian? Cause I think maybe I could be misunderstanding, but some of that question is geared toward collection development. Yeah. Um, I think knowing That it's

00:39:06.530 - 00:39:25.689

OK to ask. OK, um. Asking the vendor, asking those that I work with, um, there's so much expertise around us that I don't have to be the expert on anything. I mean, I do, but I don't have to be like the expert on everything, you know,

00:39:25.790 - 00:39:38.952

I don't have to be the expert on digitization. I can meet with UW libraries and talk to their preservation. Department and ask them how they're doing, what they're doing, and who they partner with, and the vendors that they use, you know, we don't have to reinvent

00:39:38.952 - 00:39:57.156

the wheel every time we're going to do something. And so I think it's been learning that is like, I have this whole support system, um, even if it's somebody at another library, uh, we redesigned. Some of our statistics, uh, work in Lib Answers a few years

00:39:57.156 - 00:40:08.875

ago, and I reached out to Harvard and I said, What are you doing? I'm just going to cold call you. Um, and librarians are so nice. So even if they can't help you, a lot of times they're like, let us know what you do. Like, we

00:40:08.875 - 00:40:25.699

don't know, but yeah, tell us the answer. I hope that's helpful. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I, I, I think that, uh, love the love the knowledge gap, um, framing, and I think that, uh, sometimes our cold calls result in that kind of on a profession-wide scale. Um.

00:40:26.590 - 00:40:43.120

Pivot a little bit, uh, a comment that one of our attendees raises. Um, the challenge that vendors almost always include a link to terms and conditions online that can change at any time instead of agreeing to static terms and conditions in assigned license. Sometimes we've been

00:40:43.120 - 00:41:00.070

able to get the online terms copied into an addendum with revisions, but it's becoming more rare. Do you have thoughts about this, this kind of Fixing, fixing the terms and conditions and how to to stake, uh, or to to kind of get certainty or or clarity

00:41:00.070 - 00:41:22.399

in that kind of information asymmetry. Yeah, that's really annoying. Um, uh, I feel you on that, and, um, my thoughts. Are That this is, um, I think a real challenge in some of the work that we do with vendors, especially in law libraries, um, where the

00:41:22.399 - 00:41:41.320

products that we use aren't necessarily always geared geared toward the academic or the learning environment, they're geared toward the practitioner. Um, I know it might be unique to the institution, but the University of Washington has a requirement that all terms and conditions, including privacy, have to

00:41:41.320 - 00:42:04.370

be in an editable Word document and submitted to them, um, in that format during the procurement, the contract review process, um. The changing nature of the terms is one that I think is a little bit above my pay grade. Um, I would definitely be working with,

00:42:04.429 - 00:42:22.120

um, my library director and, um, our procurement and privacy department when those changes come up, and if they are substantial enough to change the nature of the terms and need to renegotiate a contract. Honestly, I, I've not had a lot of experience with the terms changing

00:42:22.120 - 00:42:42.620

so substantially that it hasn't it, um, resulted in, um, a contract change during the middle of a contract. Uh, that said, I don't know that we're going to be excluded from that experience going forward. Um, there's a chapter in this book, uh, dedicated to, um, contracts

00:42:42.620 - 00:43:03.189

and licensing, and I think that there could, there's the possibility for maybe more helpful and specific answers there, um. That is something that I always seek guidance and help on because um the authority or the ability to navigate those things do not lie uh with me.

00:43:03.350 - 00:43:21.300

I, in this role, I'm definitely the intermediary between those in my library, the library director, and, uh, you know, privacy and procurement, who have to work that out with the vendor directly. So, I'm sorry I don't have a more satisfying answer. It is challenging, uh, and

00:43:21.300 - 00:43:40.750

I do definitely feel that. I don't know. Thank you. Um, another question, um, what methodology do you use to keep up with each vendor, um, in terms of contacts, uh, specifics of access? Do you like to use a Word document or Excel or something, something else?

00:43:42.090 - 00:44:04.820

Yeah, so, great question. Um, we've gone from paper Rolodexes, uh, literally, um, during my time here, and now we actually utilize, uh, vendor records in our, um, in our library catalog. Um, we have ALMA Primo, and, um, in ALMA, we have vendor records, and in those

00:44:04.820 - 00:44:23.310

vendor records, we can put contact information, we can input, um, Uh, contact names, um, so that's been a really great way that provides accessibility and transparency for everyone in the library staff. Uh, it allows us to change it in one place and update it there so

00:44:23.310 - 00:44:44.979

everyone can see, um, and then cross-departmentally between the research department and the collections department. Um, we also sometimes just will send emails, so some of our research librarians work directly with our, uh, legal platform. Vendors like Westlaw, Lexus, and Bloomberg, um, they work more directly with

00:44:44.979 - 00:44:58.860

those vendors, and so if there's a change in point of contact, um, they will just let us know and we can update that information on our side. I think we might have little like sticky notes or Word docs or things about our favorite people with certain

00:44:58.860 - 00:45:14.649

vendors that we get to know. Pearl probably has a Quick dial for Gobi. I mean, I think it's a variety of ways of communicating, right? And then keeping track of those communications. So a lot of things are done by email. Sometimes a vendor will call me

00:45:14.649 - 00:45:26.219

directly on the phone if she's like, you know, this is going to just be easier if I have a 10 minute conversation with you. Um, whenever possible, I really try to meet with them in person. I think a lot comes out of that, even though it

00:45:26.219 - 00:45:39.340

does take a lot of time. Um, we met with 3 folks from OCLC this week, and that was a conversation that I don't think that we could have organically had over email and then probably not even the same way via Zoom. Like it's just different when

00:45:39.340 - 00:45:54.875

you're all just in a room chatting together, um, and then in terms of tracking. All of that communication, uh, we have a shared OneNote that we use for collection development. So all of our meeting minutes exist in one tab, and then all of the meeting minutes

00:45:54.875 - 00:46:08.860

from all of those vendor meetings that we have with them are on one tab, and then the whole library has access to those notes. So that's something that we can all refer to. It's keyword searchable. If I'm like, what the heck did I talk to Gail

00:46:08.860 - 00:46:24.800

about, uh, last year, I've got notes in there that I can refer back to if I'm gonna meet with them again and we're refreshing on a product or something like that. And so that's been extremely helpful, um, is to have those digital shared notes. Yeah. I

00:46:24.810 - 00:46:48.399

love that as a uh institutional memory, um, tool. Um, uh, there's a comment in the Q&A. I'm gonna frame it as a question. Um, have you run into the situation where vendors provide counterstandard usage statistics or usage statistics that don't serve your needs or like map

00:46:48.399 - 00:47:17.969

onto the needs of your institution, and can you speak just about Usage statistics and how, how you have negotiated those with vendors. Yeah, um, that's a good question. Um, I have We often almost ask for usage stat statistics, especially before renegotiating a contract, um, and It

00:47:17.969 - 00:47:41.699

is the case where often they don't all give us information about what we actually wanna do, uh, whether we keep cancel or Whatever, um, a good example is, um, we have a contract with Westlaw Japan, and, um, it's IP authenticated, um, we have, uh, Classes that

00:47:41.699 - 00:48:04.260

um require us supporting the research, um, and For the cost and for how much it's used, we wanna know and have support that we're buying something that is worth what we're paying for it. Um, and the usage statistics are very, very, very challenging. Um, so fortunately,

00:48:04.360 - 00:48:21.149

um, the people at Westla Japan that I work with directly are very, very amenable and helpful, and I ask for Translations of things. I ask for um clarification about what this metadata field means. I ask for Um, can it, is it possible for them to give

00:48:21.149 - 00:48:37.899

me more information about, um, You know, what user group might be using the resource? Is it law specific or is, or is the law library paying for something that's used more outside of the law school, and is that a good use of our resources? So I

00:48:37.899 - 00:48:57.790

think that you should, you should, usage stats are sometimes difficult to ask for in a way that is meaningful to your library for the negotiation discussion or the decision about whether you're keeping something or not. And I think it's very possible in my experience to ask

00:48:57.790 - 00:49:20.389

vendors for more specific information to provide that, and sometimes it's a very unsatisfactory answer. If you're looking for statistics from like Elsevier or um journal packages or things like that, I think those companies are so big sometimes that it's hard to get what you're actually, what

00:49:20.389 - 00:49:36.139

you actually need, because they just, it's a no, that's the answer. So, It's not a very satisfying response to the common question, um, but that's how we try to, to navigate it. Sometimes you just have to shoot from the hip and take the data as it

00:49:36.139 - 00:49:55.540

is and hope you're making the best choice that you can. I think that also requires more conversations internally with faculty and users. Thank you. We have a question from a firm librarian here in the Q&A. Wondering if these same tactics presented here apply for working with

00:49:55.540 - 00:50:14.340

consultants who act as a go-between between a vendor and library administration. Working in a firm library, we have some adversarial contract negotiation that breaks down when working with vendors contracts, especially when changes come up mid-contract. So do you have experience involving third parties in your negotiations?

00:50:14.689 - 00:50:35.989

And if so, can you speak to that? That's really interesting. I don't think that we've had that necessarily, although. I will say that in a lot of ways because of the way the University of Washington is set up, a third party can be Um, the UW

00:50:35.989 - 00:51:04.719

privacy or UW procurement, yeah, because Because, um, the law school and the law library have needs. To be providing resources to contribute to faculty curriculum and scholarship and student learning. And the law librarians are often aligned with those, and the vendors um can sometimes help us

00:51:04.719 - 00:51:27.949

get to where we need to be. The pain points often exist with the, um, Very, uh, strict, and I understand why, but often challenging, um, guidelines and regulations within the University of Washington system that are not supported by any state or federal laws. So it can

00:51:27.949 - 00:51:52.790

be really hard and it can cause tension, um, when we are working on a contract that's more complicated. Um, usually because of the nature of personal data or records that the, the resource could potentially be, um, Having access to Honestly, we've had side conversations. Um, I

00:51:52.790 - 00:52:11.810

always, I always invite, um, Carla Will, the director of the law library, um, and then people, uh, in my community, my direct law school community who can help me have those conversations because I don't have the authority, and sometimes the language to be able to convey

00:52:11.909 - 00:52:31.129

to the University of Washington or the vendor if they're the pain point, um. How to get to a solution, um, and collaborate on finding an agreeable contract. But I don't know that we have the experience because we are a public institution. We are a lot more

00:52:31.129 - 00:52:48.370

um, Boxed into who we can and can't do business with, um, and so it might not be that, it might be you want to reach out to other firm libraries to find out what their solution or their experiences with that. Maybe you get to form a

00:52:48.370 - 00:53:02.679

group, and then you all get to like start having more power, or I, I don't know, going off a little bit. I hope that was helpful. Um, I, we're in our last few minutes, and I, this, your response just triggered a thought that I had written

00:53:02.679 - 00:53:18.370

down earlier, which is, um, do you feel that like through I'm wondering, I would love to know if vendors like If they see the light over time. Like if you have an extended relationship with someone who has met the the needs of your specific community and

00:53:18.379 - 00:53:34.729

and it's policies that are perhaps more restrictive than state or federal law, like are you enhancing them over time? Are they getting better? Did they tell you if they are better able to work with other public institutions, um, because they have met these challenges? Like I

00:53:34.739 - 00:53:49.620

I see how these relationships are very fruitful for You all, and I assume the benefit on the other side is money, but I also wonder if you are educating, if you perceive that you are educating these vendors to be more successful in their negotiations with other

00:53:49.620 - 00:54:06.590

institutions. That's a great question, Genevieve, and I think that I can only answer that with I hope so. Um, I think with UW privacy too, as we have a lot of these conversations, we have had contracts come up sooner than UW libraries, and so we've been

00:54:06.590 - 00:54:22.649

able to kind of, um, have those conversations in advance of them having to have their contract conversations and maybe move things along or create an understanding on a small scale, so that then when they get to that point, um, I'm kind of on a tangent here,

00:54:22.739 - 00:54:38.794

but when they get to that point, they Perhaps experience less friction than what we maybe experienced when we first reached out about it, just because there's a more collective understanding of the, the need and the function of the thing that we're trying to push through. I,

00:54:38.955 - 00:54:57.540

I also think that your question really leads us back to, like, part of the reason why we wrote this chapter, because I think that the more we can, um, highlight and promote that law libraries are talking about this stuff, that we're trying To have these conversations

00:54:57.540 - 00:55:18.610

that hopefully are mutually beneficial and not exclusive, and by mutually beneficial, I mean extend beyond our institution. So they do benefit the firm library or the other academic institution down the road or across the nation, um. I don't know. Thank you. I, I'm only cutting in

00:55:18.610 - 00:55:31.024

because we are at time, but I love that we were able to circle back to kind of the beginning. Um, thank you both so, so much for joining us. Um, this has been really helpful. I hope everyone buys the book, um, and, uh. I hope everyone

00:55:31.024 - 00:55:47.625

has a great rest of your afternoon. Yes, so thank you and please look for new Biddle Speaker Series events in the new year. Otherwise, happy holidays, everybody, and good afternoon. Thank you so much. Thanks.